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New JasonA - How real is the Devil?

mrpops09_CMOD_mrpops09_CMOD_ Chief Moderator
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Comments

  • crystalcrystal Member
    Much of what this man says is true. Jesus said the " whole world was lying in the power of the wicked one." 1 John 5: 19  Revelation 12: 12 " Woe for the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you having great anger knowing he has a short period of time?  Music is one of the many things the demons use to mislead humans especially the young. Anyone that gets involved with the occult,  practices mentioned in Deuteronomy 18: 10- 13 is getting involved with Satan and his wicked angels. You play with fire your going to get burned as the saying goes. God warns us to keep away from those things for our own good. Satan wants to take as many humans away from God who is our source of light and life. Those that repented of having anything to do with the occult in Jesus day who repented of practicing magic brought their books and burned them up Acts 19:19 before everybody. The books were worth about 50000 pieces of silver. We should get rid of anything in our lives, our homes that have anything to do with the occult including music of those that sing about and all the things mentioned in Deuteronomy. Satan hates God and all that God has made and perverts and twists the good God has made and says the GOOD  is Bad and the Bad is Good.    
  • mrpops09_CMOD_mrpops09_CMOD_ Chief Moderator
    crystal said:
    Much of what this man says is true. Jesus said the " whole world was lying in the power of the wicked one." 1 John 5: 19  Revelation 12: 12 " Woe for the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you having great anger knowing he has a short period of time?  Music is one of the many things the demons use to mislead humans especially the young. Anyone that gets involved with the occult,  practices mentioned in Deuteronomy 18: 10- 13 is getting involved with Satan and his wicked angels. You play with fire your going to get burned as the saying goes. God warns us to keep away from those things for our own good. Satan wants to take as many humans away from God who is our source of light and life. Those that repented of having anything to do with the occult in Jesus day who repented of practicing magic brought their books and burned them up Acts 19:19 before everybody. The books were worth about 50000 pieces of silver. We should get rid of anything in our lives, our homes that have anything to do with the occult including music of those that sing about and all the things mentioned in Deuteronomy. Satan hates God and all that God has made and perverts and twists the good God has made and says the GOOD  is Bad and the Bad is Good.    
    Glad you watched. This guy is perhaps my favorite youtuber. Seems every video he puts out is extremely entertaining even if the viewer isn't christian. Part two of his 3 part series a couple weeks ago blew my mind 
    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • crystalcrystal Member

     I do NOT  believe in the rapture. The scriptures teach that a great crowd of people will survive the coming great tribulation on to an earth cleansed of all wicked humans. Revelation 7: 9 and verse 14  The earth will be cleansed and righteous hearted people that love God and their fellow man and our planet will live on EARTH where God intended in the first place. If God wanted humans to live in the spiritual realm he would have put us there in the first place. Also Jesus died on an upright stake not a cross. Google  stauros  and you will find out that's the Greek word used for what Jesus was hung on. The cross came from ancient Babylon where false religion got its start. They used crosses on lots of things. There's a book called the Two Babylon's that has many pictures of the things they used in their false religious worship, which things and beliefs we find in many churches today. Satan is called crafty or cunning in the scriptures. He also uses religion to deceive. If one claims to follow Jesus then one must make sure that everything they have been taught comes from the scriptures.

  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    crystal said:
    Much of what this man says is true. Jesus said the " whole world was lying in the power of the wicked one." 1 John 5: 19  Revelation 12: 12 " Woe for the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you having great anger knowing he has a short period of time?  Music is one of the many things the demons use to mislead humans especially the young. Anyone that gets involved with the occult,  practices mentioned in Deuteronomy 18: 10- 13 is getting involved with Satan and his wicked angels. You play with fire your going to get burned as the saying goes. God warns us to keep away from those things for our own good. Satan wants to take as many humans away from God who is our source of light and life. Those that repented of having anything to do with the occult in Jesus day who repented of practicing magic brought their books and burned them up Acts 19:19 before everybody. The books were worth about 50000 pieces of silver. We should get rid of anything in our lives, our homes that have anything to do with the occult including music of those that sing about and all the things mentioned in Deuteronomy. Satan hates God and all that God has made and perverts and twists the good God has made and says the GOOD  is Bad and the Bad is Good.    
    It's entirely true, and the purge needs to be complete. Occult seeps into our lives far more than most realize, including the money we use, the basic conversations we have with one another, and so on. 
    -------------------
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    edited March 13
    crystal said:

     I do NOT  believe in the rapture. The scriptures teach that a great crowd of people will survive the coming great tribulation on to an earth cleansed of all wicked humans. Revelation 7: 9 and verse 14  The earth will be cleansed and righteous hearted people that love God and their fellow man and our planet will live on EARTH where God intended in the first place. If God wanted humans to live in the spiritual realm he would have put us there in the first place. Also Jesus died on an upright stake not a cross. Google  stauros  and you will find out that's the Greek word used for what Jesus was hung on. The cross came from ancient Babylon where false religion got its start. They used crosses on lots of things. There's a book called the Two Babylon's that has many pictures of the things they used in their false religious worship, which things and beliefs we find in many churches today. Satan is called crafty or cunning in the scriptures. He also uses religion to deceive. If one claims to follow Jesus then one must make sure that everything they have been taught comes from the scriptures.

    Crystal, since your perspective on things has already intrigued me, I'd like to ask a question of you: is Jesus a god, the literal biological son of God, or a messenger sent by God? 
    -------------------
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • mrpops09_CMOD_mrpops09_CMOD_ Chief Moderator
    crystal said:

     I do NOT  believe in the rapture. The scriptures teach that a great crowd of people will survive the coming great tribulation on to an earth cleansed of all wicked humans. Revelation 7: 9 and verse 14  The earth will be cleansed and righteous hearted people that love God and their fellow man and our planet will live on EARTH where God intended in the first place. If God wanted humans to live in the spiritual realm he would have put us there in the first place. Also Jesus died on an upright stake not a cross. Google  stauros  and you will find out that's the Greek word used for what Jesus was hung on. The cross came from ancient Babylon where false religion got its start. They used crosses on lots of things. There's a book called the Two Babylon's that has many pictures of the things they used in their false religious worship, which things and beliefs we find in many churches today. Satan is called crafty or cunning in the scriptures. He also uses religion to deceive. If one claims to follow Jesus then one must make sure that everything they have been taught comes from the scriptures.

    I personally hold a Mid-Tribulation rapture view (really towards the end of the tribulation). However, it's not a belief I hold strongly and would be open to new evidence to change my mind. 

    One thing I find really interesting is something the bible mentions but no one ever talks about. Right after Jesus died on the cross, it seems at least a local rapture occurred

    Matthew 27:51-53

    51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

    53 
    And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.:  
    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • crystalcrystal Member

    Matt ADMIN says is Jesus a god, a literal biological son of God or a messenger sent by God ?  

    I apologize for not getting back sooner as I've been  under the weather. Since I believe Gods word is truth I will let the scriptures answer the question..

     Colossians 1:15  speaking about Jesus  " He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of all creation." 

    God sent His FIRSTBORN son to the earth to be a ransom sacrifice for mankind. A perfect man was needed as Adam was made perfect but lost perfection when he and Eve followed the rebellious course of The angel who made himself Satan which means resister. That's  another subject so I will continue with scriptures concerning Gods son.

    When Jesus was baptized at the age of 30 years, a voice from the heavens said in Matthew 3:17 This is my SON, the beloved , whom I have approved.

    John the Baptist said in  John 1: 34  I have seen it and I have borne witness that this one is the SON of God.

    Jesus was praying to His father before he was killed in John 17: 1 he said, Father, the hour has come: glorify your SON that your son may glorify you.  

    In John 14:28 Jesus said,  "The Father is greater than me."

    Psalm 83:18 that people may know that you whose name is Jehovah you alone are the Most High over all the earth. Old king James version. Gods name is in original scriptures about 7000 times represented by YHWH. Man took Gods name out and instead inserted God or Lord.

    Luke 1: 32 speaking about Jesus this  verse says " This one will be great and will be called SON of the Most High.

    There only one supreme God, Jehovah aka Yahweh. According to scriptures Jesus is Gods son.

  • mrpops09_CMOD_mrpops09_CMOD_ Chief Moderator
    edited March 16
    crystal said:

    Matt ADMIN says is Jesus a god, a literal biological son of God or a messenger sent by God ?  

    I apologize for not getting back sooner as I've been  under the weather. Since I believe Gods word is truth I will let the scriptures answer the question..

     Colossians 1:15  speaking about Jesus  " He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of all creation." 

    God sent His FIRSTBORN son to the earth to be a ransom sacrifice for mankind. A perfect man was needed as Adam was made perfect but lost perfection when he and Eve followed the rebellious course of The angel who made himself Satan which means resister. That's  another subject so I will continue with scriptures concerning Gods son.

    When Jesus was baptized at the age of 30 years, a voice from the heavens said in Matthew 3:17 This is my SON, the beloved , whom I have approved.

    John the Baptist said in  John 1: 34  I have seen it and I have borne witness that this one is the SON of God.

    Jesus was praying to His father before he was killed in John 17: 1 he said, Father, the hour has come: glorify your SON that your son may glorify you.  

    In John 14:28 Jesus said,  "The Father is greater than me."

    Psalm 83:18 that people may know that you whose name is Jehovah you alone are the Most High over all the earth. Old king James version. Gods name is in original scriptures about 7000 times represented by YHWH. Man took Gods name out and instead inserted God or Lord.

    Luke 1: 32 speaking about Jesus this  verse says " This one will be great and will be called SON of the Most High.

    There only one supreme God, Jehovah aka Yahweh. According to scriptures Jesus is Gods son.




    @crystal - 1) Answer me this: This is Jehovah God correct? 

    Isaiah 41:4 Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD--with the first of them and with the last--I am he."

    Isaiah: 44:6 "This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

    Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.



    Now, let me take you over to Revelation and I hope to show you something: 

    Revelation 1:16-17 - In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

    Revelation 1:7-8 "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

    Revelation 2:8 To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again


    2)Tell me specifically, who is Revelation 2:8 referring to? The one who died and came back to life again. The one called here "The First and the Last"...Who is that? 

    Jesus obviously died and came back to life again. He is the First and the Last. He is Jehovah in your terms. Jesus is begotten of God. He is God as is the Holy Spirit. Jesus was not a created being, he is begotten of God. 
    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • crystalcrystal Member
    edited March 23

    mrpops09  says,    Tell me specifically, who is Revelation 2:8 referring to? The one who came back to life again. The one called here "The First and the Last ...Who is that?

    I didn't forget your question. I've been very busy with other things. Id be happy to answer your question but first I would like you to explain the following scriptures, some of which I typed above in my answer to Matts initial question which was, 

    Is Jesus a God, or the literal biological son of god, or a messenger sent by God? 

    Colossians 1: 15 He is the image of the invisible God the FIRSTBORN of all creation  because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth. 

    Revelation 3:14 These are the things that the amen says the FAITHFUL and TRUE WITNESS,  the BEGINNING of the CREATION by God.

    Jesus Is called the FAITHFUL WITNESS in Revelation 1:5

    John 3:16  For God loved the world so much that he gave His only BEGOTTEN SON  Begotten means in the dictionary ( especially of a male parent) to procreate or generate offspring, to cause, produce.

    John 1:14 So the WORD became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an ONY BEGOTTEN SON FROM A FATHER and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth.

    According to these scriptures and many more i can only conclude that Jesus had a beginning. That he was the FIRST and only one to be directly created by YHWH and that all other things were created through Gods firstborn son. That's exactly what Col 1: 15 says.

    I do NOT believe in a 3 headed  trinity God that man made a church doctrine some 300+ years AFTER  Jesus died. The trinity originated in ancient Babylon where false religion had its start. They  had several false  trinity Gods they worshipped.

    Can you please explain the scriptures above stating that Jesus is Gods firstborn son. That he is a begotten son. Revelation 3:14 That he is the BEGINNING of the creation by God. in harmony with Col 1:15

  • mrpops09_CMOD_mrpops09_CMOD_ Chief Moderator
    crystal said:

    mrpops09  says,    Tell me specifically, who is Revelation 2:8 referring to? The one who came back to life again. The one called here "The First and the Last ...Who is that?

    I didn't forget your question. I've been very busy with other things. Id be happy to answer your question but first I would like you to explain the following scriptures, some of which I typed above in my answer to Matts initial question which was, 

    Is Jesus a God, or the literal biological son of god, or a messenger sent by God? 

    Colossians 1: 15 He is the image of the invisible God the FIRSTBORN of all creation  because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth. 

    Revelation 3:14 These are the things that the amen says the FAITHFUL and TRUE WITNESS,  the BEGINNING of the CREATION by God.

    Jesus Is called the FAITHFUL WITNESS in Revelation 1:5

    John 3:16  For God loved the world so much that he gave His only BEGOTTEN SON  Begotten means in the dictionary ( especially of a male parent) to procreate or generate offspring, to cause, produce.

    John 1:14 So the WORD became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an ONY BEGOTTEN SON FROM A FATHER and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth.

    According to these scriptures and many more i can only conclude that Jesus had a beginning. That he was the FIRST and only one to be directly created by YHWH and that all other things were created through Gods firstborn son. That's exactly what Col 1: 15 says.

    I do NOT believe in a 3 headed  trinity God that man made a church doctrine some 300+ years AFTER  Jesus died. The trinity originated in ancient Babylon where false religion had its start. They  had several false  trinity Gods they worshipped.

    Can you please explain the scriptures above stating that Jesus is Gods firstborn son. That he is a begotten son. Revelation 3:14 That he is the BEGINNING of the creation by God. in harmony with Col 1:15

    First, I do believe in the Trinity and so we aren't going to be able to agree and I can show you evidence to support my view, but if you don't believe in the Trinity or that Jesus is God, that's not Christianity. There is just no way around it if you deny the diety of Jesus the Christ 

    You are correct in saying Jesus is the Begotten son of God. No other creation is begotten of God. Begotten means : 1(especially of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).  This means that Jesus was created from God, is a part of God, and was generated from God Himself. All other creation was created, not begotten of God. Jesus is literally part of God (trinity). 

    You quoted John 1. Let's look at the early verses in John 1 to provide some context: 

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2 The same was in the beginning with God.

    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


    In john 1:14, we are talking about the same person, Jesus Christ, who was with God in the beginning and all things were made by Him and in Him is life. He is the Light which I will circle back to in the end of my answer 


    You mention Colossians 1: 15. Again, Let's provide some more Context here::

    13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

    20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


    This seems pretty clear to me, but I'm happy to hear what you think this means.


    You then quote John 3:16 which I will also provide context  for. However, the scriptures testify all throughout that Jesus Christ is Lord. You are not going to be able to use the Bible to show me JESUS isn't God because that's what the entire book is about 

    10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

    11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

    12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


    John 8:12

    12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • mrpops09_CMOD_mrpops09_CMOD_ Chief Moderator

    According to these scriptures and many more i can only conclude that Jesus had a beginning. That he was the FIRST and only one to be directly created by YHWH and that all other things were created through Gods firstborn son. That's exactly what Col 1: 15 says.

    Can you please explain the scriptures above stating that Jesus is Gods firstborn son. That he is a begotten son. Revelation 3:14 That he is the BEGINNING of the creation by God. in harmony with Col 1:15


    Yes, John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Jesus is the Word. God came to earth in Human form (Jesus). Jesus is fully man, yet God. I cannot pretend to have a full understanding of the Trinity. However, now there is a Man sitting on the Throne of God, Jesus. Jesus is literally in His resurrected body as a Man. While His physical body had a beginning, Jesus as the Word did not and is literally part of God the Father. Again, all this goes to the trinity which you do not believe exists and so I cannot really convince you otherwise 
    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • crystal said:
    Much of what this man says is true. Jesus said the " whole world was lying in the power of the wicked one." 1 John 5: 19  Revelation 12: 12 " Woe for the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you having great anger knowing he has a short period of time?  Music is one of the many things the demons use to mislead humans especially the young. Anyone that gets involved with the occult,  practices mentioned in Deuteronomy 18: 10- 13 is getting involved with Satan and his wicked angels. You play with fire your going to get burned as the saying goes. God warns us to keep away from those things for our own good. Satan wants to take as many humans away from God who is our source of light and life. Those that repented of having anything to do with the occult in Jesus day who repented of practicing magic brought their books and burned them up Acts 19:19 before everybody. The books were worth about 50000 pieces of silver. We should get rid of anything in our lives, our homes that have anything to do with the occult including music of those that sing about and all the things mentioned in Deuteronomy. Satan hates God and all that God has made and perverts and twists the good God has made and says the GOOD  is Bad and the Bad is Good.    
    Problem, you say we must follow Deuteronomy 18 and avoid the pagan practices, that seems to presuppose Deuteronomy as a book of God and therefore of truth.

    Deuteronomy 21 states if we find an corpse and do not know who killed them, we are to behead a heifer and wash our hands over it’s body.

    If you follow what the entire Bible teaches you, are you in favor of this practice as well as the various other sacrificial traditions stated in the Bible?

    Also, have you read the non canonical scriptures? 
    11-13 Illinois
  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    @hansel49 ;

    Who do you feel Jesus is?
    -------------------
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • crystalcrystal Member

     @ mrpops     Your explanation of the trinity does not make sense because the trinity doctrine doesn't make sense. Those who support the trinity doctrine always use John1:1 to try and support their belief. John 1:1 is a spurious verse and was added to support the trinity. But even if it wasn't  Jesus can be called a god because he is godlike but he is NOT the almighty God  Even Satan is called the God of this world aka system. Only YHWH holds the title of ALMIGHTY God.  Both the Hebrew and Greek scripture's tell us that there is only ONE YHWH, One almighty. Jesus is never called the almighty God. He is never called the Father. Jesus always directed attention to the Father. Jesus always prayed to the Father. Jesus was not praying to himself . That doesn't even make sense. And Gods word makes sense.   

    The scriptures say that YHWH Yahweh aka Jehovah created His first born son. Therefore Jesus had a beginning and could NOT be the sovereign of the universe because YHWH NEVER had a beginning. But Gods only begotten son did have a beginning. Jesus is the mediator between God the almighty and humans. If those that support the trinity  would read the whole context of John 1: 1- 14  Because it says in verse, that The WORD became flesh and resided among us. And we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only BEGOTTEN SON from a Father. Jesus is called the word of god because he is Gods spokesmen. He speaks for the Father to angels and humans. That's why he is called the word of God. The Catholic church tells everyone that the trinity cannot be explained  because it's a mystery. I follow the scriptures and NOT the  clergy class that supports the trinity because I believe it is a pagan teaching that came from ancient Babylon where they worshipped a number of trinity Gods. Revelation chapter 18 says to GET OUT OF BABYLON before her destruction. Babylon represents the global empire of all false religion. Those who stay in false religious organizations will receive part of her plagues Revelation 18: 4 tells us this. Chapter 18: verses 11- 15 tells us everything that was found in Babylon. If one reads what is in Babylon one has to admit that these things are found in many churches. I follow Jesus Christ. I respect others views but I feel I must speak what I believe is the truth form Gods word. I have only used scriptures to support my belief. The trinity is not in the scriptures. According to hundreds of verses There is only one almighty God the Father, and one begotten son. When Jesus was baptized a voice  from heaven was heard saying this is my SON the beloved whom I have approved. 

  • crystalcrystal Member

    Hansel 149  I mentioned we are to keep away  occult practices which are also spiritistic  practices mentioned in 18: 10-12.  Because it's  ALSO mentioned in Revelation 20: 8

    it says there " But as for the cowards,  and those without faith,  and those who are disgusting in their filth, and the murderers, and the fornicators, and those PRACTICING SPIRITISM and the idolaters and all the liars their portion will be in the lake of fire and sulphur, " this means the second death."  Their thrown into the second death which means eternal destruction. The first death is the death we die because of Adams and Eves sin. There is a resurrection from that death. But there is not a resurrection from the second death. So according to revelation those who practice those things mentioned in Deuteronomy 18: 10-12 will be thrown into the second death' ..

    If you really want to know if we are still under the law of Moses then I suggest you do some research on the subject. We are NOT.But no more questions because it seems you are looking for an argument which I will not get into.

    I told the truth about Occult practices including astrology. And Revelation 20: 8 backs up what Deuteronomy says. That's all I will say on the subject.

  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    @crystal ;

    I'm just asking this out of curiosity, based on what you've already written, and feel absolutely free to speak as you wish - have you ever read the Quran?
    -------------------
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • @Matt_ADMIN_  
    I don’t know, I have a lot of ideas about Jesus and insufficient knowledge to say I believe in any of them moreso than others.
    God will eventually show me what’s right if I need to know.



    @crystal ;
    Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    It does say sorcerers, which seems to be the only word not used in Deuteronomy to describe the forbidden pagan practices(in my KJV book at least), but I won’t bother getting into the semantics part of it cause I don’t think it would further any discussion. 

    I’m not looking for argument, I’m trying to point out you’re quoting a book that you don’t follow. If we’re not under Mosaic law, why would you quote Mosaic law?
    11-13 Illinois
  • crystalcrystal Member

    Hansel 49  Were under the underserved kindness of YHWH because he sent His son to die for our sins and set us free from the law which condemned to death. The law was perfect but no human could keep the law perfectly. If they could keep it perfect they wouldn't have to die. We couldn't keep it perfectly because were imperfect so the law condemned us to death. That's why God sent His son to die once for all times. He shed his perfect blood so that everyone that exercises  faith in him might have life. They used animals sacrifices under the law for sin every year. We do not need animals sacrifices for sins anymore because Christ shed his blood once for all time. That's why he's called the LAMB of God that takes away the sins of the world. That does not mean we disregard the law because we still follow the principles of the law.

    As far as Deuteronomy 18: 10 -12 it mentions divination, a practice of magic, anyone who looks for omens or a sorcerer, or one who binds others with a spell, or anyone who consults a spirit medium or a professional foreteller of events or any one who inquires of the dead. For everybody doing these things is detestable to YHWH.  The things mentioned come under occult practices or spiritistic practices. There's Many different translations of the scriptures. Its nice to look at other translations and see what synonyms they might use. As  for me I like to use a modern translation as its easier to read without thou or art etc. I read from the Hebrew scriptures because it blends perfectly with the Greek. It helps me along with the Greek to understand  Gods word better. It builds my faith in bible prophecy as I learn how prophecy was told  many years in advance by Gods prophets and every word was fulfilled Just like God inspired them to write down. Reading from the Hebrew scripture helps me to know the sovereign of the universe better. Jesus quoted many times from the Hebrew scriptures. 

    When we read what Gods prophets suffered at the hands of those who ignored Gods warnings to repent of their wickedness it helps us to endure suffering for the Christ. Much good we get from reading from both the Hebrew and the Greek.

    I might add that you could research spiritism and the occult. These practices are forbidden by God. Anything that's any part of the occult can bring one in  contact with wicked sprit persons. Why do you think there's so much of it out there today? Because as revelation 12  12 says Satan is angry knowing  he has a short period of time to continue to mislead humans.

      

     

  • crystalcrystal Member
    @ MATT_ADMIN_   No, I have not read the Quran.
  • mrpops09_CMOD_mrpops09_CMOD_ Chief Moderator
    @crystal  I appreciate you engaging in discussion with us all here. It's been a while since I've actually tried to have a conversation  with someone as opposed to just trolling lol 
    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • @crystal ;

    Along with the synonyms though you should look at the metaphorical meanings.


    I don’t believe there was a time humans didn’t die, why would Adam and Eve have to eat at all if they had no chance of dying? To alleviate hunger pains? Why would they have hunger pains?

    Why did we need to sacrifice animals for our mistakes? That didn’t prevent death.

    If animals and Jesus’ sacrifice payed for the second death stated in the book of Revelation, what does it state about the second death in the Old Testament?
    11-13 Illinois
  • mrpops09_CMOD_mrpops09_CMOD_ Chief Moderator
    edited March 25
    hansel49 said:
    @crystal ;;;;

    Along with the synonyms though you should look at the metaphorical meanings.


    I don’t believe there was a time humans didn’t die, why would Adam and Eve have to eat at all if they had no chance of dying? To alleviate hunger pains? Why would they have hunger pains?

    Why did we need to sacrifice animals for our mistakes? That didn’t prevent death.

    If animals and Jesus’ sacrifice payed for the second death stated in the book of Revelation, what does it state about the second death in the Old Testament?
    The reason animals were sacrificed in the OT was to cover the punishment for sin. The punishment of sin is death and that is why blood sacrifice was required in the OT. That is why Jesus, the Lamb of God, had to come and be a blood sacrifice for our sins. 

    In the OT, animals that were sacrificed had to be without spot or blemish. Hence Jesus, without sin (spot or blemish) willingly was sacrificed for us. He then rose from the dead 3 days later conquering death, and the veil in the temple was torn in two  (the veil covered the Holy of Holies where the presence of God resided). The tearing of the Veil represented that now all had access to God through Jesus and the actual physical dwelling place of God was no longer necessary to experience the presence of God or to have communion with God

    To further note: Prior to sin, there was no death. Adam and Eve would have theoretically lived forever had they not choose to sin. However, God knew they were going to sin. The animal sacrifices were never meant to prevent physical death, only spiritual. Sin is what corrupts our world, and while you may choose not to take this literally, people in the early parts of the OT lived extremely long lifespans (many over 500 years). I don't think you have to take this literally (I do), but that's not something that is really necessary for one to believe. I know many at my church choose to take it metaphorically 
    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • @mrpops09_CMOD_ ;
    You didn’t just die spiritually if you committed a sin against Mosaic law, weren’t you killed physically by your brethren?

    If Adam and Eve would’ve lived forever then that makes no sense why they needed to eat.

    I don’t believe the presence of God ever solely resided anywhere, God is everywhere and everything.
    11-13 Illinois
  • Rosie_MOD_Rosie_MOD_ Moderator
    Some ultra modern versions of the Bible have changed the intended meaning and words
    dramatically to suit modern times and importantly the mindset of the translator. I picked up one that read like a novel for teenagers in an op shop (second hand shop) recently.  There was little similarity to KJV.

    Additionally since the original books in the Bible were written they've been translated in so many languages there are changes in each one.

    We all have free will and choose the Bible we study based on our belief as to which is the closest translation. Based on the verse below  I'm happy to stick with and study the King James Version. In saying that, it's becoming more difficult to obtain that version as time goes by.


    Deuteronomy 4:2 King James Version (KJV)

    2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.



    "We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves."

  • crystalcrystal Member

    @ Hansel149   You said if Adam and Eve would have lived forever then it makes no sense why they needed to eat.

    My answer is that God gave us a physical body. Blood runs through the body and gives us nourishment. God didn't intend for humans to eat meat. It was only after the flood that God said man could eat meat. But it was to be killed humanely and the blood of the animal was to be poured on the ground, The blood was NOT to be eaten because the life of the soul is in the blood. There will come a day when humans will not need meat for nourishment.  Do you not enjoy to eat food? God put man here to enjoy life, To enjoy all the good things he put here for us. Wouldn't life be kind of boring if we didn't enjoy food ? I'm talking about all the grains, nuts, seeds, fruits, and vegtables, what a variety God put here for humans to enjoy. we should appreciate and thank God for life, and the things he made for us to enjoy. 

    Hansel149  you said if animals and Jesus sacrifice paid for the second death stated in the book of revelation, what does it state about the second death in the old testament?

     The SECOND death mentioned in Revelation is for those who refuse to listen to God. Those who do Not except Christ's sacrifice  exercising faith in it  by admitting that we were born in sin and imperfection and in need of the ransom sacrifice. Who knowingly and willfully follow the rebellious wicked spirit persons, refusing to listen to the very one who gave us life. Who want to decide  for themselves what's  good and bad.  Those who do not  repent BEFORE Armageddon ( which is Gods war against all who willfully oppose His sovereignty) will be thrown into the second death. That's what the scriptures tell us. I never said that Jesus sacrifice covers the second death. IT does NOT  cover the second death. It covers the FIRST death. The death we die because of the imperfection we inherited from our first parents.

  • crystalcrystal Member

     @ Hansel149   Revelation 20: 13 And the sea gave up those dead in it and death and hades gave up those dead in them and they were judged individually according to their deeds.

    And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire, this means the second death, the lake of fire. Furthermore whoever was not found written in the BOOK of LIFE was hurled into the lake of fire.

    Hades is the Greek word for hell. Hades aka hell is the common grave of man. Those in hell aka hades will have a resurrection. Those that are thrown into the second  death who are not written in Gods book of life will not be resurrected.

    We need to read and study Gods word and DO what it tells us to do if we want life. God made us. We didn't make Him. He has the right to decide and tell us what's good and what's bad.
























  • @crystal ;
    So death was possible then when Adam and Eve were supposedly immortal if food was for nourishment. 

    I guess you you could chalk it up to another flaw instilled in us by a perfect god, who kept asking us to be perfect even though they intentionally created us so we aren’t.

    Do you believe if you don’t admit Jesus as the only son of God you go to hell?
    11-13 Illinois
  • Rosie_MOD_Rosie_MOD_ Moderator
    edited March 26
    hansel49 said
    So death was possible then when Adam and Eve were supposedly immortal if food was for nourishment.

    This is my understanding with reference to some Bible passages below:
    God being perfect gave us free will along with the potential for our inner soul to achieve perfection. However He commmanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree (knowledge of good and evil) in the midst of the garden lest they die. They disobeyed Him.  Check verse 5 Chapter 3 Genesis.

    Also verse 22 Chapter 3 Genesis. He cast them out of the Garden of Eden in case they were tempted to eat of the Tree of Life and live forever once they had eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  So prior to them disobeying him they seemingly had the potential to live forever sin free.  Therefore once they lost innocence and became capable of sin  it would appear he no longer intended *man in the flesh to live forever. Adam's  physical  (carnal) body was formed from the ground (verse 23) and Eve was formed from his rib, so it's apparent our soul and earthly body are separate just as with Jesus as he was God within a human body, although our body and soul  appear convincingly to us to be part of our intrinsic "being".  The body following the thoughts of the mind which is the battle we fight.

    Also verse 22. "And the Lord said behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil".  Consider whether reference to "us" refers to God (good) and his polar opposite Satan, the devil (evil).  Therefore Satan (evil) must have been present all the time. Clearly the "serpent"  who beguiled Eve was evil and calculating and had a satanic motive behind his object of influencing her. Otherwise why would he even bother?  The serpent was not something good created by God, so it would seem he was a creation or being of Satan.

    Eve allowed the serpent  to tempt her into eating fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (verse 17) and Eve also talked Adam into eating it. (verse 2 onwards) They both became aware of nakedness and this was the loss of innocence which we are all born with as babies but each of us loses in copying the lead of our parents and friends as we grow older. Some like Abel grow up as good and others follow Cain's traits.

    Hence we are all tested throughout life.  My understanding is that God saw  humanity's struggles with sin which prevent us from achieving perfection and decided to put His perfect soul in human body form  to be born as Jesus to experience and fight Satan's temptations on this earthly battleground. Jesus in physical form had to die for our sins after which God's soul returned to Heaven. So whilst Jesus had a body, God didn't which is why He needed one to experience life as we do although Jesus' soul was God's soul.  That's to say God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit I believe are one not three as Jesus had the only physical form.  We are all given the opportunity to accept this gift of foregiveness of our sins.

    Acts 2:38 records the Apostle Peter’s words on the day of Pentecost, “Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’”

    Even though we may repent and be baptised  this doesn't lessen the struggles we have with so many things and from every direction  on a daily basis.  Retaining  belief in God is what saves us even though we backslide constantly. This belief if we hold onto it can heal us from illness and despair in situations where man with all his learning and technology cannot.




    "We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves."

  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    edited March 27
    @hansel49 ;;;

    When you compare the old and new testaments, are you suggesting that there is perhaps a contradiction between them? How would you reconcile that the old testament puts forth laws (some pretty intense) that the new testament does away with (or so it is argued), with the following statement by Jesus:

    [Matt 5:17] "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
    -------------------
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • crystalcrystal Member

    @hansel149 : says so death then  was possible if Adam and Eve were supposedly immortal if food was for nourishment.

    Crystal says The scriptures tell us that God told Adam and Eve they could eat from every tree except one, The tree of knowledge of good and bad. God said in the DAY you eat from it you will surely Die. If they obeyed God they wouldn't have died and they wouldn't have passed imperfection and death to their offspring. God never intended for humans to die. That tree stood for Gods right to decide what's good and bad for His creation. 

    Satan and one third of the angels rebelled against The most high wanting  to be like God and wanted humans to worship him instead of The sovereign of the universe. Satan told the first lie on earth. In Genesis 3: 4, 5, He told Eve that She would not die. For God knows that in the very day you eat from it your eyes  will be opened and you will be like God knowing good and bad.

    By disobeying God they were in effect saying we want to decide for ourselves what's good and bad just like Satan and those angels that followed his rebellion. Satan means resister. Satan resisted The Most High laws and principles and wanted Humans to follow him instead of YHWH. Jesus said in John 8:44 - 47 to the religious leaders because they were seeking to kill him " You are from your father the devil and you wish to do the desires of your father, That one was a MANSLAYER when he began and did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the  a lie he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.

    In verse 47 Jesus said He that is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God. 

    Satan lied, and because Adam and Eve believed Satan's lie that they would be like God and could make there own decisions as to what's good and bad aka right and wrong  sin and imperfection entered the world.  Adam died in THAT DAY at 930 years old. 2 Peter 3:8 says that one day with YHWH is like 1000 years. Adam and EVE died in that DAY according to Gods view of time. Devil means slanderer. Satan slandered God when he told the first pair that God wasn't telling the truth that he was with holding something from them. That they wouldn't die. The first pair passed on sin aka error to the human race and that's why we get sick,age,and die.

    And many humans still believe the lie that they can ignore God, decide for themselves what's good and bad, and they won't die. Many humans believe we have an immortal soul that won't die. That is the lie Satan told. Satan and the wicked angels don't want us to live. They hate God and us.  Satan still wants people to believe they can do what they want and they won't die. That's not true. Ezekiel 18.4 says  "The soul that is sinning it itself will die." Jesus is our way out of death. He paid the price for all of us. A ransom sacrifice.

    1 Corinthians 15: 22 says For just as in Adam all are dying so also in the Christ all will be made alive.    

    Acts 4: 12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.

    The scales of justice had to be balanced. Adam, a perfect man lost perfection and brought sin and death to the human race. We needed a perfect man to buy us back from sin and imperfection. No perfect man existed on earth that's why God sent His perfect firstborn son into the earth to buy us back form sin and death. All who exercise faith in the ransom sacrifice and obey God to the best of their ability are promised life. We are imperfect and so we must fight the tendency to do what's wrong. We must also resist the evil angels who work on our weaknesses to try and get us to sin.

    We need help from the Most High  to put up a fight against Satan and his wicked angels.

    And to struggle with our inborn tendency to sin. If we want life we must put up a fight.

    Jude 3 Says " Put a hard fight for the faith."  Yes we must fight for the truth in a world filled with lies. Jesus said the whole world aka system is lying in the power of the wicked one. Many of those dead will be resurrected to life on earth AFTER God destroys the wicked.  Gods original purpose to have humans fill the will be become a reality.

     

  • crystal said:
    This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God. 
    Oh, fantastic to know your the one who judges if I am from God or not.
    11-13 Illinois
  • crystalcrystal Member

    @ hansel 149  said Oh fantastic to know your the one who judges if i am not from God.

     Crystal says to hansel149  I spent my time answering your questions and if you are able to read and understand, what i said above, was this. Jesus was speaking to the religious leaders who were trying to kill him, and said to them," he that is from God listens to God. This is why you do not listen because you are not from God." Jesus said that to the Pharisees who were religious leaders. I do not judge. God is the judge. Is that clear enough for you?

    Either you can not understand what is said to you, or your very young, or your are looking for an argument. I will not respond to you anymore.

  • Rosie_MOD_Rosie_MOD_ Moderator
    edited March 28
    Misunderstandings such as the one just clarified are easily made and must confess on initial reading I made the same interpretation as @hansel49 without having referenced  back to the Bible.  We all read things differently when communicating in text form rather than face to face and a simple explanation in good humour  is usually all that's needed for us to be on the same page and remain in harmony with each other.

    It's impossible to deny that we all backslide continuously in one way or another whether we know it or not as we are human and Satan does tempt us. Thankfully God is not a  God that's just available on Sundays or sits in judgement in the sky only at the moment we die and He's far stronger than the devil if we believe. 

    "We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves."

  • Rosie_MOD_Rosie_MOD_ Moderator
    On eating from the trees in the Garden of Eden: After careful reading of the Bible verses below there are some questions.

    Genesis 2 KJV verse 9 and 15
    Planting of the Garden
    9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

    The Forbidden Fruit

    15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Genesis 3 King James Version (KJV)

    3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

    2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

    3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

    4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

    *Note the plural

    and

    Genesis 3:22-24 King James Version (KJV)

    22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

    24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

    *note again the plural

    Three questions @Matt_ADMIN_ ;; and anyone else interested in suggesting possible answers.

    1) Who is God referring to in Verse 22 Chapter 3 of Genesis

    22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us

    and
    2) Adam and Eve having eaten of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil were originally permitted to eat of the Tree of Life.  After they ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil upon which God stated they had became us one of "us"  God removed them from the Garden of Eden lest they eat of the Tree of Life and live forever.  Does this mean with the knowledge of Good and Evil plus the ability to be immortal if they had the opportunity to eat from the Tree of Life Adam and Eve and their progeny would be as equally Godlike?

    3) And  it appears than mankind (or most of it) is relentlessly searching for the very Tree of Life attempting to become immortal.  We fear death in the belief that it will be a far worse and lonely place than earth even though we are all "alone" even within a family circle in one sense.  We gather up possessions, money and material things as though that's what "is" us or represents our worth on this planet. Even elderly people hoard stuff in the belief we have permanency by the very fact of ownership of tangible objects.

    The question - why did God not forbid Adam and Eve to eat of The Tree of Life prior to them having consumed from the Tree of Knowledge and Good and Evil? It was only after the fact he cast them out of the Garden of Eden so they had no opportunity to do so.


    "We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves."

  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    Alright, here are my thoughts on this:

    The Bible uses "we", and interestingly, so does the Quran, and I believe the reason for this comes across a bit more clearly in the Quran than it does in the Bible. That reason being, we're in the midst of a test, and the "we" refers to all those who are employed in making the test happen, from God, to Gabriel, to the angels, and even people that God has chosen to serve a particular role. To be employed in the unfolding of the test implies knowledge and ability beyond those being tested, and so it's a division between the two groups. In the Quran, the reverse of this is used, "thou", to indicate the opposite group of people. I also think this might be where the idea of the "trinity" came from.

    As for the various trees, and what would happen, that's difficult to know, because the processes that happen outside of our testing bubble are unknown to (most of) us. The trees could be metaphors to describe processes that under our current condition we wouldn't otherwise be able to relate with. Perhaps what is being said is that outside of this testing bubble, time and life and death as we understand it do not exist, and to no longer eat of the tree of life is to no longer have access to those living conditions. 

    The Quran mentions something interesting, called "the trust". It describes how God offered "the trust" to the mountains and the heavens and the earth, but they were "afraid" to bear it and declined it, but mankind ignorantly accepted it. In this case, perhaps the tree of good and evil is actually representative of the ego and/or idolatry, in thinking one (or other humans or entities) are better suited to govern existence than God. In this case, the two trees might make more sense: after Satan convinced Adam and his wife that they had the ability to govern themselves, God demoted them in order to be tested to prove or disprove such a claim and allow the truth to prevail.

    In saying all this of course, only God and those who are a part of the process know what's really going on, but that's my perception of it.




    -------------------
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • mrpops09_CMOD_mrpops09_CMOD_ Chief Moderator
    In The Bible when it speaks of God, God is referred to in the plural. This is especially in Genesis that Rosie quoted. The Hebrew is actually more interesting because it reveals more to us than the english translation.

    In Hebrew, God is a plural noun. HOWEVEVER, the cool thing is that to be a plural in hebrew language requires 3 or more (not two). This is grammatical evidence for the Trinity (God is 3 in 1: Father, Son, Holy Spirit) 
    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    edited March 30
    -------------------
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • mrpops09_CMOD_mrpops09_CMOD_ Chief Moderator
    edited March 30
    Yes, I am sure. I don't care what that website says, it's simple hebrew. In Elohim, the "im" ending is how you conjugate the plural. That guy from "outreachjudaism" can write as much as he wants, it doesn't change the fact he is wrong.It'd be like in english arguing that "gods" isn't plural. The doctrine of the Trinity doesn't hang on this, it's just one of those neat little tidbits  

    Let me show you something from that website where he knows he is being deceitful, but also knows you cannot read hebrew. He quotes Exodus 7:1 and Implies the grammar insinuates moses is being called "Elohim". He then asks if we believe Moses part of the trinity:

    7:1 The Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made thee a god אֶלהִים, (Elohim) to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.”

    He goes no to say:
    Are missionaries suggesting that there was a plurality of persons in Moses? Is your associate going to insist that Moses was part of a Trinity? The notion that Moses, who is called Elohim in the Torah, possessed more than one person is preposterous. 

    This is Pretty sneaky. Here is what he doesn't tell you: When you take that verse as a word-for-word translation, it actualy says:
    7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'See, I have set thee in God's stead to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

    Or from the ESV:

    7:1 And the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.

    So, he purposefully and deceitfully did that to make his point knowing full well that isn't the intended sentiment of the verse 
    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • mrpops09_CMOD_mrpops09_CMOD_ Chief Moderator
    PS I went to post my comment on that website. Conveniently, it appears they don't allow dissenting speech to their propaganda 
    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
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