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Pope Francis Rejects "MESSIAH", Suggests It Is Incompatible with Christian Values (Dahboo)

mrpops09_CMOD_mrpops09_CMOD_ Chief Moderator
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Comments

  • mrpops09_CMOD_mrpops09_CMOD_ Chief Moderator
    Whelp, denying Jesus as the messiah is basically the definition of being an anti-christ (in christian terms). You CANNOT deny Jesus is the Messiah and be a christian. That's what Christianity is all about. 

    Christianity is not about a code of conduct on how to live. Jesus was not just a wise teacher. It is quite the opposite

    What Christianity teaches is different than any other religion because it says you do not go to heaven for your actions (good or bad). You go to heaven through Jesus Christ who died for your sins on the cross, and then rose from the dead. It is belief that Jesus died for us. You cannot earn your way into heaven. Jesus saves you as you are, and as your relationship grows, you will start to have a repentant heart and turn from your old sins. This takes time. Now, belief in Jesus does not mean we have a license to sin. This is a deep topic and I'd be happy to go into more detail if anyone wishes to learn more 
    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • mrpops09_CMOD_mrpops09_CMOD_ Chief Moderator
    Now, I dug deeper into this...It seems Dahboo is taking quite an "artistic interpretation" of what the pope said:

    “I don't see myself as anything special...I'm a sinner, I'm fallible," the 80-year-old pontiff continued.

    He went on to warn against the dangers of populism, calling it "evil."

    "Populism is evil and ends badly, as has been shown by the past century," he said.

    He noted that populism has always required a "messiah" figure to succeed, suggesting it is incompatible with Christian values.

    The comments were made during Pope Francis' first major interview with a German newspaper. The interview took place at the end of February, but was published on Thursday. 


    https://www.rt.com/news/379996-pope-francis-existence-god/

    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • That's quite the artistic interpretation.

    Perhaps Mr. Dahboo should step outside for a breath of fresh air once in a while!
    People in this world look at things mistakenly, and think that what they do not understand must be the void. This is not the true void. It is bewilderment.
    - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings
  • Rosie_MOD_Rosie_MOD_ Moderator
    This is from an article in the New Catholic Register: Quote

    The Pope concluded his catechesis by urging those present to not place themselves above the mercy of Christ by believing in a false image of the Messiah.

    “We Christians believe in the God of Jesus Christ, and our desire is to grow in the living experience of the mystery of love,” he said. “We commit ourselves, therefore, to not place any obstacle in the way of the action of the merciful Father, but we ask the gift of a great faith to become ourselves signs and instruments of mercy.”

    Unquote:
    read more:
    http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/beware-of-believing-in-false-images-of-the-messiah-says-pope-francis

    "We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves."

  • Rosie_MOD_Rosie_MOD_ Moderator
    Whilst the above quoted article is from Sept 7 2016 The inclusion of word "False" changes the meaning entirely.  Am in agreement mrpops09 with your comment re "artistic interpretation" re the video.

    "We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves."

  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    While it is true that one cannot simply feign belief in God through doing morally relativistic "good deeds", it is also true that one cannot truly believe in God while leaving righteous works undone. Otherwise, "Love they neighbour as yourself" no longer has any meaning and becomes nothing but an emotionally-satisfying philosophical abstraction.

    Jesus even explains what being a good neighbour entails through the parable of the Good Samaritan. It's simply not possible to claim to be a believer while simultaneously not doing what God has instructed us to do: to take care of one another to the best of our abilities, among other duties. In fact, Jesus' entire ministry was about him and the disciples doing good works for others. Faith and the fulfillment of God's instructions are inextricably linked.

    The "Jesus" everyone has in their minds today is a fiction who never existed. Jesus is not a white European woman as every piece of art depicts him. He was a brown guy, maybe even a black guy. Virtually no one liked him, for obvious reasons. People only started to like him after he was dead, so that they could use their imaginations and desires to shape him into what they wanted him to be. He was brilliant. God gave him many gifts to share with the people, including an important message. I say all this because it connects to what I'll say next:

    The Pope may be onto something, and even Dahboo: a billion people throughout the world currently worship a fictionalized character as a god. It makes no difference if people are worshiping a populist dictator or some theological fiction painted to look exactly like Cesare Borgia (on purpose - look it up). Running with the herd because it offers some sort of self-satisfaction under the guise of divinity is no less a form of populism than a man claiming he will build a wall. In either case, people are looking towards a false messiah, an idol, and that only leads down the road of destruction.
    -------------------
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • Whelp, denying Jesus as the messiah is basically the definition of being an anti-christ (in christian terms). You CANNOT deny Jesus is the Messiah and be a christian. That's what Christianity is all about. 

    Christianity is not about a code of conduct on how to live. Jesus was not just a wise teacher. It is quite the opposite

    What Christianity teaches is different than any other religion because it says you do not go to heaven for your actions (good or bad). You go to heaven through Jesus Christ who died for your sins on the cross, and then rose from the dead. It is belief that Jesus died for us. You cannot earn your way into heaven. Jesus saves you as you are, and as your relationship grows, you will start to have a repentant heart and turn from your old sins. This takes time. Now, belief in Jesus does not mean we have a license to sin. This is a deep topic and I'd be happy to go into more detail if anyone wishes to learn more 
    I don't know if I can ever believe this interpretation of Jesus.

    If I try to live by the teachings of Jesus and I try to help people whenever the chance arises, why should I have less of a chance of making it to than the man who knows little of the bible and solely works for his own desires yet claims to accept Jesus into his heart?

    A few weeks ago I was invited to a church by a couple friends(who didn't actually show up due to it being Superbowl Sunday). Upon entering the church I was Immediately approached by an older gentleman who pointed out my little pin that says "Truth" on it. He told me the only truth is Jesus. I attempted to explain how I view Jesus as a follower of all truth in general. He continued telling me how I was misguided.

    I told him along the lines, "Those who claim themselves as wise inturn become fools, we can't just say we know the truth and it's the only truth or we are being foolish. We have to test every spirit for truth." and all he would respond with was saying I've been listening to some bad left-wing teachers.

    Everyone in that church is more likely to enter Heaven than me I suppose. It doesn't matter if they cling to their extravagant lifestyles and just pray to help others instead of teaching the truth and physically assist them.

    It doesn't matter if they choose not to help themselves and maintain their temple, as long as they have Jesus, he'll magically make them happy in the end and damn me to hell.

    A mass murderer who says he accepts Jesus the god is better than a moral person following Jesus the man.

    I don't believe my god of Truth could honestly agree with that.
    11-13 Illinois
  • Any one can say that they have accepted Christ into their life.  As long as they continue to act in accordance with their own self interests it means that they're only paying lip service and haven't really accepted him.  Salvation isn't granted by merely saying "I believe".  Salvation comes from belief, repentance, acceptance and following his principles in your heart and in your actions.  Any who believe differently are fools.

    If the politicians treat people this poorly when they're armed to the teeth,

    just imagine what they'll be willing to do once they've disarmed everyone.

  • I think a big distinction exists between people who have accepted Jesus into their hearts, and people who have only accepted him into their minds.  The latter have hearts that are closed - sealed, if you will, against truth.  In their minds they can dream up any number of convincing tales to tell about their virtues but in the end it's going to come down to the content of their hearts - which will be found empty upon judgement.  Jesus isn't going to be able to help them, nor would he wish to.

    What's interesting is that accepting Jesus and his teachings into your hearts would also be accepting him into your mind, but in a way that allows your thoughts to be guided by those teachings rather than those of other people or your own devising.
    People in this world look at things mistakenly, and think that what they do not understand must be the void. This is not the true void. It is bewilderment.
    - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings
  • mrpops09_CMOD_mrpops09_CMOD_ Chief Moderator
    edited March 10
    tazweiss said:
    Any one can say that they have accepted Christ into their life.  As long as they continue to act in accordance with their own self interests it means that they're only paying lip service and haven't really accepted him.  Salvation isn't granted by merely saying "I believe".  Salvation comes from belief, repentance, acceptance and following his principles in your heart and in your actions.  Any who believe differently are fools.
    This is more like what I was trying to say. My attempt was to simplify it as best as possible. Basically, trying to earn your way into heaven through deeds is blasphemy because it is claiming that more than the acceptance of Jesus's death and resurrection is required for our salvation (This is the basics). 

    However, if you truly accept God into your heart, your heart will be changed (resulting in works). God is the most powerful thing in the universe. If someone claims to have come in contact with Him, yet remains unchanged, it likly isn't so. If you come in contact with a semi-truck on the highway, your going to see a difference.... Now imagine coming in contact with the most powerful being in the Universe. 

    as @Matt_ADMIN_ was stating, One cannot know God without good works, or good works are the result of knowing God. The Bible says: 

    Ephesians 2:8-10 
    For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

    However, the Bible also says in Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits...

    This issue is rather complicated but to sum it up in 2 sentences: You are saved by belief in Jesus and repenting from your sins. Once you starting growing in a relationship with God, He will change you which results in bearing fruit (works, Holy Spirit, Letting God's light shine etc etc) 


    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • mrpops09_CMOD_mrpops09_CMOD_ Chief Moderator
    edited March 10

    hansel49 said:



    Everyone in that church is more likely to enter Heaven than me I suppose. It doesn't matter if they cling to their extravagant lifestyles and just pray to help others instead of teaching the truth and physically assist them.

    It doesn't matter if they choose not to help themselves and maintain their temple, as long as they have Jesus, he'll magically make them happy in the end and damn me to hell.

    A mass murderer who says he accepts Jesus the god is better than a moral person following Jesus the man.


    This just simply isn't true. As @Farmer_Sean_DEP_  and  @tazweiss said, it is more than professing with your mouth. It is also more than just believing Jesus was real and rose from the dead.

    Do you know who first recognized Jesus as God? Demons. No joke, the demons in the gospel cried out and were terrified of Him long before His disciples knew He was God. My point is here, the Demons knew who Jesus was (hence believed), but they certainly weren't saved.

    God is after our heart, not our mind 
    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • hansel49hansel49 Member
    edited March 10
    I understand the idea you can't trick god.

    My point is though, a "righteous" man in the sense that he always does what he sees as moral and just, whenever he makes a mistake he asks for forgiveness from God and whomever that mistake may have affected, and he goes out of his way to help everyone, essentially lets just say it's a man who acts a lot like Jesus, but he refuses to believe in the divine nature of Jesus.

    Is that a mistake/sin? If all sins are equal in the eyes of god then that morally upright and faithful man must be equal to an adulterer, thief, or murderer.


    The devil is after our "heart" and corrupts it through deception, I believe God purifies it through truth.
    11-13 Illinois
  • Many Christian sects believe that there are several levels to hell and the level you go to depends on the way you have sinned.  They also believe there are several levels in Heaven and the level you reach depends on the faith and righteousness of your works.

    All our concepts of Heaven and hell have been passed down to us by men.  We cannot know our final destination until we reach it.  We can only hope we get that which we deserve (for the most part, anyway).

    If the politicians treat people this poorly when they're armed to the teeth,

    just imagine what they'll be willing to do once they've disarmed everyone.

  • crystalcrystal Member

    I enjoyed reading the many  good comments. Looks like we all want to live. Some people have told me they don't want to live forever.

    Revelation tells us that there is a book of life and all who were not found written  in the book of life would experience the second death. Rev 20:15

    The first death is the death we die because of Adams and Eve's sin. There is a resurrection from that death. Revelation 20:13 Says And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the grave (some bible's say hades one and the same) gave up the dead in them and they were judged individually according to their deeds Most of those now dead will have resurrection according to these verses.

     Verse 14 says And death and the grave or some translations say  hades were hurled into the lake of fire This means the ( SECOND DEATH)  the LAKE OF FIRE. verse 15 says further whoever was NOT found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire. 

    The lake of fire means the second death and not eternal torment in fire. It means Death the opposite of life.

    Most humans will have a resurrection to life on earth where God intended us to live.

    Jesus said the meek will inherit the EARTH. Meek is not week, meek is someone who's teachable, wanting to learn, wanting to change and reflect Godly qualities. Yes it takes time to change and were very imperfect and we have wicked spirit forces trying to get us to sin or trying to keep us busy with other things. But if we want to have our names in the book of life then we must continue to take in life saving accurate knowledge from Gods word. And we must apply it . James 2:26 Faith without works is dead.

     Yahweh aka Jehovah Is a loving God remembering we are made from dust. He is a merciful god and says if we repent of sins in Isaiah 1:18 He says though the sins of you people should be as scarlet they will be made white just like snow Though they should be red like crimson cloth they will become even like wool.

    Those killed in Gods final war against those who continue in works that God disapproves will not have a resurrection. Rev 21:8 But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and sexually immoral and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire this means THE SECOND DEATH. No resurrection from the second death. . Not a popular message. But God wants people to live not die so He warns them.

    So now is the time to put up a real struggle to have a good relationship with the Father by following his son our savior Jesus Christ. The Messiah.

    All who fight for the real truth will have difficulty in this system,  Jesus told us we would. Jesus is the Way the truth and the life. Jesus leads the way to life. We must follow Jesus teachings. He said everything he told us came from the Father.

     He tells us we must love God with our whole heart and mind and love our neighbor has our self. He exposed the hypocrites, He went from village to village town to town declaring the good news about Gods Kingdom. He healed the sick and raised the dead. He was a ransom sacrifice for our sins.  He showed on a small scale what he's going to do after the  wicked are removed.  .

    Rev 21:3 and 4 He will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be NO MORE neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.

    Jude 3 says " Put up a hard fight for the faith."  Be careful of false religion, watered down truth, some truths mixed with error, false hood.

  • Rosie_MOD_Rosie_MOD_ Moderator
    edited March 10

    Well said crystal...
    Most people whether they admit it or not love themselves more than their neighbour as their ego is in control.  Others despise themselves so much they fear others also.  Fear is only a small step away from hatred.  We fear what we don't understand. This is one of the reasons we fear citizens of other countries who may be of a different "colour" and speak another language and have traditions that are foreign to us.

    "We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves."

  • mrpops09_CMOD_mrpops09_CMOD_ Chief Moderator
    hansel49 said:
    I understand the idea you can't trick god.

    My point is though, a "righteous" man in the sense that he always does what he sees as moral and just, whenever he makes a mistake he asks for forgiveness from God and whomever that mistake may have affected, and he goes out of his way to help everyone, essentially lets just say it's a man who acts a lot like Jesus, but he refuses to believe in the divine nature of Jesus.

    Is that a mistake/sin? If all sins are equal in the eyes of god then that morally upright and faithful man must be equal to an adulterer, thief, or murderer.


    The devil is after our "heart" and corrupts it through deception, I believe God purifies it through truth.

    I am not God, but all I can tell you is that the Bible does teach that without Jesus, there is no salvation.

     If you believe that God is real and ultimately good, then it is God who determines what is right and what is wrong. If God is divine and perfect, it is sinful to determine for oneself what is right and wrong because there is already an ultimate standard (God). It isn't so much the specificity of the sin itself that is equal, but rather the usurpation of God's rightful place as the true Lord of one's life and conduct. 

    I'll end with this: 
    1 John 4:2-6

    2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

    3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

    5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

    6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • So that doesn't tell me why it's so important to accept Jesus as a divine being with magical abilities in order to be a good person.

    Is there no line of reasoning behind it other than 'the book says it'? What if that book has been corrupted?
    11-13 Illinois
  • mrpops09_CMOD_mrpops09_CMOD_ Chief Moderator
    edited March 10
    hansel49 said:
    So that doesn't tell me why it's so important to accept Jesus as a divine being with magical abilities in order to be a good person.

    Is there no line of reasoning behind it other than 'the book says it'? What if that book has been corrupted?
    You 100% do NOT have to accept Jesus to be a good person. One of my best friends is an atheist and is a better person than I am. On the flip side, there are plenty of Christians out there that are not good people. One of my favorite sayings is "Church isn't a museum for saints, it's a hospital for sinners". 

    In regards to other reasons, There is tons of secular sources that say Jesus existed. In the end, it does come down to Faith. 

    Here is an illustration I've always liked: Suppose I tried to tell you that JFK was killed by being shot in the head with an arrow....People would laugh at that because there are lots of people still alive that witnessed the event and everyone knows that's not what happened.... Now, suppose a group of people witnessed Jesus die on the cross and appear after death. These people in the area who witnessed the events were mostly Jews and Romans. They were so convinced by the things they witnessed, they left their belief and 1000's died horrible deaths proclaiming they witnessed Jesus as the Messiah. Would you die for a lie? These people lived in that time, saw Jesus with their own eyes, and were willing to die for their beliefs. If Jesus was just a "good guy", I doubt many would be willing to die for the claim he is the Son of God 
    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    hansel49 said:
    I understand the idea you can't trick god.

    My point is though, a "righteous" man in the sense that he always does what he sees as moral and just, whenever he makes a mistake he asks for forgiveness from God and whomever that mistake may have affected, and he goes out of his way to help everyone, essentially lets just say it's a man who acts a lot like Jesus, but he refuses to believe in the divine nature of Jesus.

    Is that a mistake/sin? If all sins are equal in the eyes of god then that morally upright and faithful man must be equal to an adulterer, thief, or murderer.


    The devil is after our "heart" and corrupts it through deception, I believe God purifies it through truth.
    You and I share the same philosophy regarding Mr Jesus, and perhaps even in general theologically, despite following (primarily) different books. I find that very interesting.
    -------------------
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    tazweiss said:

    Many Christian sects believe that there are several levels to hell and the level you go to depends on the way you have sinned.  They also believe there are several levels in Heaven and the level you reach depends on the faith and righteousness of your works.

    All our concepts of Heaven and hell have been passed down to us by men.  We cannot know our final destination until we reach it.  We can only hope we get that which we deserve (for the most part, anyway).

    This is an interesting comment, Taz. What makes it even more interesting to me is that the Quran suggests that there are indeed ranks in the (real) life to come based on one's ambition in the test of righteousness in this world. I find that the more all the different groups share their "differences", the more same we all end up becoming.
    -------------------
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    I'm going to read the rest of the comments and comment more later on this when I have a bit more time, God willing. It's been a while since we've had a theological discussion here, and it's honestly kind of exciting.
    -------------------
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    "Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who believe in GOD, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves; and they observe the Contact Prayers and give the obligatory charity; and they keep their word whenever they make a promise; and they steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and war. These are the truthful; these are the righteous." (Quran 2:177)
    -------------------
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • crystalcrystal Member

    Hansel 49 says

    So that doesn't tell me why it's so important to accept Jesus as a divine being with magical abilities in order to be a good person.

     Crystal says

    Jesus never claimed to have magical abilities in fact Gods word condemns magic. 

    And you asked a good question. Its good to question things. The scriptures say we should "make sure of all things" You asked why is it important to accept Jesus?

    It's true a person can do good things for others and not follow or accept Jesus.

    The reason why it's important to accept Jesus is because we all were born imperfect. That's why we get sick age and  die. Adam and Eve were born perfect with the prospect of living forever and their offspring too. Adam and Eve rebelled and ate from the Only tree that God told them not to eat from . That tree stood for Gods right to decided what's good and bad for humans. In eating from that tree they took it upon themselves to decide what's good and bad. God warned a couple that if they ate from the tree they would die. Adam and Eve passed on imperfection to all of us resulting in death.

    1 Co 15:22 For just as in Adam all are dying so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

    Gods plan is to help Adams offspring out of the situation we are now in. So He sent His son to earth to buy back what Adam lost. No one on earth could have paid the price because all were born imperfect. We needed a perfect man and that man was Jesus.

    He paid the price with His own blood so that all who except and put faith in Jesus could be saved. Gods original plan to have perfect humans filling the earth will become a reality. Humans that obey Gods laws and principles will live on the earth.

     Jesus said the whole law is summed up in 2 commandments, He said in Matthew 22; 37 Love Yahweh aka Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind. This is the greatest and first commandment the second like it is this. You must love your neighbor as yourself verse 49 says On these two commandments the whole law hangs and the Prophets.


  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    @hansel49
    If you were asked by someone on the street "Who was Jesus?", what sort of answer would you give?
    -------------------
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • @hansel49
    If you were asked by someone on the street "Who was Jesus?", what sort of answer would you give?

    He was the one who gave me the opportunity for redemption.

    If the politicians treat people this poorly when they're armed to the teeth,

    just imagine what they'll be willing to do once they've disarmed everyone.

  • crystalcrystal Member

    Matt_ADIM_ said If you were asked by someone on the street "Who Was Jesus" what sort of answer would you give?

    Crystal says, I would say that Before Jesus came to earth he was and is the foremost Angel in heaven. He's called the only  begotten son of God. He was the first creation by the most high Yahweh aka Jehovah. Jesus had a beginning. The Father Yahweh never had a beginning. John 1:18 says " No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has Explained Him.

    1John 4:9 By this the love of God was made manifest in our case because God SENT forth His only Begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through Him.

    Jesus according to Colossians 1: 15 Is the image of the invisible God the FIRSTBORN of all creation.

     Jesus is a mighty angel He's also called the word of God . He has other titles which I won't go into here.

    But I will mention one more. Hes called  a King. Because he is the way the TRUTH and the life the scriptures say He will rule has King until he puts all enemies under his feet. The last enemy is death.

    No man on earth has ever spoke like Jesus. That's because Jesus came to earth from heaven just like the scriptures say and he spoke the truth.

    He's a savior to all sorts of men and woman.  To all who put faith in the  ransom sacrifice.

    Because we were born imperfect we age and die. Jesus the messiah was sent to the earth by His Father to pay a ransom price for many. To all who listen and accept this great gift.

    Adam was made perfect never having to die Eve also but Because they rebelled against God they lost perfection and this is what they passed on to us. Imperfection. Our organs are not perfect so we age and die. God did not intend for this to happen.

    Because were imperfect and did not commit the first sin as perfect humans God has made the way out of sin and death for us,  through Jesus Christ.

    Animal sacrifices had to be done every year to atone for sins. Jesus came and shed His blood ONCE for all time. He's called "the lamb of God that takes  away  the sin of the world John 1: 29"

    Adam was perfect and lost perfection, we needed a perfect man to buy back what Adam lost.

    No one perfect on earth who could pay the price so God sent His only begotten son into the world, a perfect man, a ransom sacrifice.

    The scales of Justice had  to be balanced.

     Jesus said to pay more than the usual attention to the things heard.

    One big lie to deceive people is that they will live on after death or some believe in reincarnation but the scriptures say that the soul that is sinning it itself will die.

    Because many believe this lie they think they can do what they want and do not realize that if we sin willfully and do not listen to what God tells us is good and what's bad we are on the path leading to death.

    The universe is run by Laws. If not, then we can imagine what the universe would be like.

    Those laws come from the creator. 

    We need to be in harmony with Gods laws. Because most humans do not listen we see the result. The world system is chaotic to say the least and is getting worse day by day.

     

  • mrpops09_CMOD_mrpops09_CMOD_ Chief Moderator
    edited March 13
    crystal said:


    Crystal says, I would say that Before Jesus came to earth he was and is the foremost Angel in heaven. He's called the only  begotten son of God. He was the first creation by the most high Yahweh aka Jehovah. Jesus had a beginning. The Father Yahweh never had a beginning. John 1:18 says " No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has Explained Him.


     

    Just for the record, this is not what the Bible teaches, but rather this is what a Jehovas witness believes.

    Christians believe that Jesus was not a created being, but is in fact God. He, Jesus, is not an angel nor ever was 

    The Bible is clear in John 1: 1-4 
    1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2He was in the beginning with God.
    3All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made
    4In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • crystalcrystal Member

    mrpops09 said  Just for the record this is not what the bible teaches but rather this is what a Jehovah witness believes

    Christians believe that Jesus was not a created being but in fact is God.

    bible is clear in John 1: 1-4 In the beginning was the word and the Word was with God and the word was a God.


    THIS IS WHAT CRYSTAL SAYS: The scriptures make very clear that Jesus is the son of God

     That the Father has a name separate from all others and that name is Yahweh aka Jehovah.

    In the old King James version Psalms 83:18 says That people may know that you whose name is Jehovah are  the MOST HIGH over all the earth. Luke 1:32 says concerning Jesus This one will be great and will be called SON of the Most High 

    Colossians 1:15 says concerning Jesus " He is the image of the invisible God the FIRSTBORN of all creation by means of Him all other things were created.

    Jesus had a beginning. The first of Yahweh's creation.

     Only begotten means he was the only one that was directly created by God. Others verses call Jesus the Begotten son of God. Dictionary tells the meaning of begotten.

    There's so many many verses that tell us Jesus was Gods son that if I were to type them all I would be here a long long time.

    All throughout the Christian Greek scriptures Jesus never claimed to be equal to the Father in fact He said in  John 14:28 The Father is Greater than I am.

    Many Christian sects Use John 1: 1-4 to try and back up the trinity. Early Christians including Jesus did not teach a trinity doctrine.

    When you ask them to explain it they say its a mystery because that's what they were told. There is no mystery.

    John 17:3 says "This means everlasting life their taking in knowledge of you the only true God and the one you SENT FORTH Jesus Christ.

    Only two are mentioned here The true God and Gods son Jesus . No third person of a so called trinity.

    It means our life to take in ACCURATE knowledge of  the Father Yahweh  aka Jehovah and His son Jesus Christ.

    The Holy Spirit is Gods active force. Its a clean force from coming from Yahweh.

    He uses this force to accomplish His purpose. He used it in creating the earth . He used it to inspire God fearing men  to write down His word to us. Timothy 2: 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired of God " 

    Scripture was written by Holy Spirit The Father helps humans who are sincere and want to know the truth to understand His word by means of Holy spirit.

    The Holy Spirit is Not a so called third person of a trinity God. The belief in trinity Gods go all the way back to ancient  Babylon where false religion got its start.

    People that were taught the trinity do not want to let go of it not matter what the scriptures say.

    I can only go by what Gods word says. It means our life to take in accurate knowledge.

    1Timothy 2:4 Gods will is that all sorts of people  should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. 

    Jesus many times prayed to His father. If he was God why would he direct His prayers to the Father?  Just doesn't make sense.

    There's another scripture that those that promote the trinity use and that is John 17: 11 and 17: 20-21

     Jesus in this chapter of John was praying to His father before He was put to death,  He said in verse 11 Holy father watch over them on account of Your NAME that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are.

    In verse 20 and 21 in chapter 17 Jesus continues His prayer and says " I make request not concerning these only but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word in order that they may "ALL BE ONE", just as you Father are union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us"

    Some translations use one instead of union. Jesus prays that all who follow Him my be one with the Father and Himself.

    One in thought and purpose. Nothing in those verses teach 3 Gods in one.

    All are to be one with the Father and son. Those that accept the truth.

    I was taught the trinity as a child but when I grew up and searched the scriptures I soon rejected the false doctrine that had its roots in ancient  Babylon.

    I do know that Jehovah's witnesses are Christian . They follow Jesus as their leader.

    Jesus said many would claim to be Christian but he would say to them "Get away from me you workers of lawlessness" Matthew 7:23

    I Thessalonians 5: 21" Make sure of all things hold fast to what is fine".





  • crystalcrystal Member

    A book one can get at the library called "Truth in translation" This bible scholar examined about 8 translations concerning  John 1:1-4

    He said the most accurate was the new world translation which says Jesus was "a"  god. NOT Jesus was God

    Jesus can rightly be called a god. 1 Corinthians 8:5 says" For even though there are those who are called "gods" whether in Heaven or on earth, just as there are many gods and many "lords" verse 6 there  is actually to us one God the Father out of whom all things are and we for Him and there is one " Lord"  Jesus Christ through whom all things are and we through Him also there is no three gods in one mentioned here. And no where else will you find three Gods in one in the holy writings.

    The translations that say Jesus is God are spurious. They were put in translations to support the trinity but the correct translation says that Jesus is a god and not Jesus is God.

    All scripture support the fact that Jesus is the son of God that He was begotten by the Father,  that He had a beginning. The" first born" of all creation Colossians 1:15


  • crystalcrystal Member
    Who do you say Michael the ARC angel is?
  • The trouble with the new translation is just that.  It is a translation, done by men, men with flaws and biases.  The trouble with the modern bible is that it is a translation, of a translation, of a translation, of a translation.  All of which were done by men who could make mistakes in interpretation.  Men who have their opinions.  Men who have biases.  Men who will, on occasion, allow their own feelings to color the translation. 

    History has shown this to be true.  When the bible was first being compiled, there were so many scriptures that not all would fit.  Men picked and chose which scriptures to include.  At the time the bible was being compiled, women were revered and held high positions in the Christian world.  To the church, when choosing which scriptures were to be included, this was unacceptable.  Men had led the household, men had held the power, they had ruled.  Men chose scriptures that promoted the authority of men.

    History has shown that even those who translated to the best of their abilities, sometimes made mistakes in the text.  One word translated wrong can change the meaning of the text.  Not even all of the ten commandments were translated correctly.

    Was Jesus the son of God or is Jesus a god himself?  Was Jesus the first son of God made flesh, or was he the first Archangel sent to earth in human flesh?  These questions can be constantly debated, but until we can ask him personally, we won't know for sure.  I have the suspicion that if we could go back to the original texts, in the original language, there may come a fundamental shift in Christianity.

    If the politicians treat people this poorly when they're armed to the teeth,

    just imagine what they'll be willing to do once they've disarmed everyone.

  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    edited March 14
    tazweiss said:

    The trouble with the new translation is just that.  It is a translation, done by men, men with flaws and biases.  The trouble with the modern bible is that it is a translation, of a translation, of a translation, of a translation.  All of which were done by men who could make mistakes in interpretation.  Men who have their opinions.  Men who have biases.  Men who will, on occasion, allow their own feelings to color the translation. 

    History has shown this to be true.  When the bible was first being compiled, there were so many scriptures that not all would fit.  Men picked and chose which scriptures to include.  At the time the bible was being compiled, women were revered and held high positions in the Christian world.  To the church, when choosing which scriptures were to be included, this was unacceptable.  Men had led the household, men had held the power, they had ruled.  Men chose scriptures that promoted the authority of men.

    History has shown that even those who translated to the best of their abilities, sometimes made mistakes in the text.  One word translated wrong can change the meaning of the text.  Not even all of the ten commandments were translated correctly.

    Was Jesus the son of God or is Jesus a god himself?  Was Jesus the first son of God made flesh, or was he the first Archangel sent to earth in human flesh?  These questions can be constantly debated, but until we can ask him personally, we won't know for sure.  I have the suspicion that if we could go back to the original texts, in the original language, there may come a fundamental shift in Christianity.

    This is profoundly true and worth contemplating.

    I would even add that if one possessed the very original text in the original language, the most important issue of all would still linger: the mental translation.

    What does it mean to you? What does it mean to me? Language itself is a translation of ideas into communication, an interpretation. Was Jesus an actual physical offspring of God? Or was that a metaphor describing spiritual relationship?

    The Bible is discussed endlessly in this regard, so I'd like to point out a few examples that show that the Bible is certainly not the only holy text to experience this dissonance:

    The Quran can be read in its original classical Arabic. One would think that would make its reading and interpretation straightforward, but that's absolutely not the case.

    For instance, there is one verse describing "cutting off the hand" of a thief. To the Arab who wants to maintain his culture, this clearly means taking a sword and separating the hand from the thief's body.

    And yet, that same verse means to "cut off" as in to create distance, as in English. To cut off, as in, to cut off a child from his allowance for behaving poorly. To ostracize, to embargo. To imprison. Grammatically, linguistic studies on a contextual basis in the 1970's demonstrated that the Quran is actually describing the creation of distance, but to the Arab, his mental translation rejects this - and off goes the hand.

    Another famous verse: "striking at the neck of the unbeliever". To the Arab, this means beheading. But once again, a more careful analysis, coupled with a contextual analysis, reveals that the verse is actually describing a military strategy that even today has a similar sounding name: "decapitation". Destroying command and control centers. Ending the war as quickly and efficiently, and with as little loss of life as possible by striking at the leadership. The "head" and the "neck" aren't physical things, but one would be hard pressed to convince the Sauds of this.

    And one last example: in 1974, an Egyptian biochemist (a muslim who had emigrated to America) undertook the first computerized study of the Quran, and found that it contained a mathematical encryption code that basically revealed what was actually the Quran, and what men had added into it. This lead to the discovery that two verses at the end of chapter 9 were completely made up (the rest of the Quran was preserved).

    The Quran's original language told us that these verses should be removed because they're not a part of the Quran. To the Arabs, these same verses told them to sneak into the man's masjid in the morning and stab him to death, which they did. Very different interpretations.

    It was mentioned that Christianity would be radically different today if the original texts in their original language could be found, and I agree with that. However, Christianism, which is what I call today's interpretation of the Bible and how it's followed by 1 billion people, would likely remain the same, because people aren't seeking so much the truth of scripture, but their own interpretations of it.


    -------------------
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • @hansel49
    If you were asked by someone on the street "Who was Jesus?", what sort of answer would you give?
    Honestly I don't think I know enough to give a complete answer on that, I have a lot more I need to understand in order to narrow down my views on what he truly is as oppose to what he could be.


    I tend to think of him as just an average man like any other(who honed his connection to God).

    I think he had to suffer through his mistakes like any other man in order to achieve his "perfection", learning to embody the best traits in himself while controlling the worst, and encouraging/helping others to do the same.

    11-13 Illinois
  • Rosie_MOD_Rosie_MOD_ Moderator
    A couple of thoughts:
    All churches (denominations) are man made. History shows each has been started and named by a human being. Each has their own set of individual beliefs and ideals to be followed by their members and each says all the others aren't the true church. Many have rewritten versions of the Bible which vary greatly from the oldest English version (King James Bible). Each has their own ideas of whether God is one, two or three entities.    We do not have to be a member of a denomination to believe in God and do our best to  follow the narrow path.  One church split away from the Roman Catholic Church to enable Henry the Eighth to divorce one of his wives.

    As God is the Creator or every living being on earth and hence the only one who can truly forgive our sins, is it not plausible that He came to earth in the human form of his only begotten Son (through Mary's virgin birth)  to experience the tests and temptations we humans go through.   That is to say He had to be born as a human and experience life from a baby to adult and then allow himself to be crucified in order that our sins are forgiven.  i.e. As God was his father, God was also in him at the same time as he as we all are is God's creation though we cannot claim perfection.  Jesus was clearly much more than an ordinary human to give his life in exchange for our sins and then to arise after 3 days in the tomb and ascend to heaven where he is one with His Father.  We each have a soul (the God part within us) and flesh (the carnal part) because we are human, not perfect. This is what creates the conflicts and the varying degrees to which humans "sin" or backslide each day. Because Jesus died for our sins; although we make mistakes and errors of judgement constantly, those sins are wiped out if we believe and try our best to choose to  follow the right path.

    It's clear there are pushes towards atheism and disbelief in a creator by scientists and governments.  If there is no God is there a right and wrong.  Following the path of disbelief in our creator allows all types of permissiveness, materialism and behaviour which we are currently seeing out there plus the divisiveness we're seeing on a global scale which is ultimately going to pit neighbour against neighbour, black against white and result in both civil and global war.  They say "The love of money is the root of all evil" and most conflict stems from poverty, greed and the divisions being created in society.

    "We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves."

  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    It's interesting that God instructs people to be "united like bricks in a wall", and to compare that to what happens when we're not
    -------------------
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • Rosie_MOD_Rosie_MOD_ Moderator
    edited March 15
    Perhaps the outcome depends on whether we are united "like bricks in a wall" in following things of this world?

    1 John 2:15-17King James Version (KJV)

    15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

    16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

    17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.


    "We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves."

  • crystalcrystal Member

    Rosie, Good comment and good scripture.

    There are only two roads one leads to life and one to death. One is either one with the world or one with God. Many people  right now all over  the globe are learning to be at one with God and separating from this wicked system .

    One either has Gods  spirit or the spirit of the world. Spirit of the world produces works of the flesh , hatreds envies murders and so forth Gods spirit produces the fruitage of the spirit. Love, joy, peace, ,kindness, goodness,  faith, patience, mildness, self control.

    Were imperfect but those that are putting up a fight aka struggle try there best to produce the fruitage of Gods spirit.

    Isn't life worth the struggle. One must struggle against the imperfect flesh and struggle against wicked spirit forces, and struggle against this world system which is designed to take us away from God and life.

    We were told that the last days would be like this, HARD to deal with. 2 Timothy 3: 1-5

    Psalm 36:9 For with you is the source of life; By light from you we can see light.

















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