What happens when we can no longer trust the justice department?

D1vadD1vad Member
edited June 2013 in Society
...Mr. Sensenbrenner said the Justice Department may have misled Congress over the data. In 2011, a top department official said the section was used less than 40 times a year. Mr. Sensenbrenner said that gave the impression it was being used sparingly, to look for specific materials, not a broad fishing expedition.
And Sen. Ron Wyden, Oregon Democrat, said the nation’s top intelligence official misled him in March when he asked Director of National Intelligence James R. Clapper if the National Security Agency collects “any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans.” Mr. Clapper replied: “No sir.”

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2013/jun/6/patriot-act-author-verizon-snooping-violates-law/#ixzz2VeRUSkAQ

What happens when we the American people can no longer trust the justice department? Isn't well past the point where the top officials need to be replaced? Are we to be a nation where laws are selectively to be enforced? When the top justice officials lie, are they worthy of the position? When the top court in the land, no longer choose to be satisfied with interpreting the law, but wants to create laws, and ignore the constitution it is time for them to go... In fact long past the time for them to go!


  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    Could we ever... could we ever...

    I suppose a better question is: What happens when people collectively awaken and realize no organs of government are trustworthy, and what should we do as a result?
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • D1vadD1vad Member
    edited June 2013
    Could we ever... could we ever...

    I suppose a better question is: What happens when people collectively awaken and realize no organs of government are trustworthy, and what should we do as a result?

    Well there will always be some who for a number of reason will choose to ignore it! And once you ignore one instance of playing loose with the truth where does it stop? Old saying once a liar always a liar, we must hold people in a position of power to a higher standard than people lacking power.

    Interesting exchange between Sen. Wyden and Director Clapper:

    Sen. Wyden: Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?

    Director Clapper: No sir.

    It does not.

    Source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/06/06/watch-top-u-s-intelligence-officials-repeatedly-deny-nsa-spying-on-americans-over-the-last-year-videos/

    So the consequences of this little exchange and Director Clapper, choice to play loose with the truth? Nothing....

    Now compare that to what happen here;

    CLEVELAND — A fired northeast Ohio prosecutor said he doesn’t think he did anything wrong by posing as a woman on Facebook to chat with witnesses in a murder investigation.

    Aaron Brockler was fired from the Cuyahoga County’s prosecutor’s office this week. He told The Plain Dealer of Cleveland that law enforcement workers have often engaged in ruses to get information from people and that he didn’t think he should have been fired.

    “I think the public is better off for what I did,” he told the newspaper.

    His former boss, county prosecutor Timothy J. McGinty, didn’t think so. He said Brockler’s behavior was unethical.

    “This office does not condone and will not tolerate such unethical behavior,” McGinty said. “ He disgraced this office and everyone who works here.”

    Source: http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2013/06/07/cuyahoga-county-prosecutor-fired-for-facebook-ruse.html

    Mr McGinty understands ethics, he doesn't make excuses for people who disseminate disinformation. Who play loose with the truth. Who lie.

    We have two very different outlooks on disinformation here....
    We've got an Administration that is willing to accept disinformation, and we have a hint at the scope of it now...

  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    edited June 2013
    I couldn't agree more: the administration is trouble, its information untrustworthy, and many people blind to both these two aforementioned facts. There are many more who latch onto its ways, and so there is a general fog of dishonesty wafting throughout society.

    So, let's say millions of Americans have awoken, and are now looking up to you for the next step. What do you tell them, and what is the course of action you put forth?
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • D1vadD1vad Member
    edited June 2013
    If we don't wish a repete of this the only acceptable policy is to point out when people in power (Politicians Judges, police, media personalities, news reporters, etc.) lie to us! No lie can be acceptable! No attempt to cover up the facts, or hide the facts can be acceptable. Zero tolerance it's a concept applied to the civilians, we must hold all of those in positions of power to at least the same standard. Disinformation, to decieve can no longer be ignored, because they are ones friends, or they had 'good' intentions....

    Why should we continue to accept that all Politicians lie? They don't have to.
  • D1vadD1vad Member
    Nor should we simply let those who hire/promote/appoint people who continue to lie skate.... There are reasons why one has friends who are constantly exposed as liars. If I intentionally tell a lie in court I've committed a crime, I go to jail. Being a person of power doesn't/shouldn't make one above/beyond the laws.
  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    I can certainly agree with all that, D1v. A lot of people, however, have much invested in these lies, so how do we get started? How does one begin calling out all these people in a way that's consequential? That's always been a point that's boggled me to solve.
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • D1vadD1vad Member
    A grassroots movement that finds people who claim to be willing to pass laws that make it a crime to tell lies to the American people?

    By calling attention to liars at all levels, where ever we may find them. By choosing not to simply ignore it.

    We need to hold those with power accountable for their actions! There must be consequences for lies government officials should not get their retirement benefits...
  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    Alright, I can agree with that. Let me then take it to the next level: when those currently sitting on the throne crush, or at least attempt to crush that grassroots movement, what then? I'm asking this because while I agree with the ideal you're pursuing, as of yet I see no procedure of its implementation, leaving Americans with two options:

    1) Revolt.
    2) Accept.

    "What happens when we can no longer trust the _________?" However the question is asked, it essentially translates into this: "What happens when the government no longer serves us?" This is essentially my oft repeated point in all these discussions, simply because at present I see no other method of reform. However, I'm very curious in any other offered solutions.
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • D1vadD1vad Member
    The Branch Davidians siege of 1993 proves that no group can stand up to the federal government, since then the federal government has only seized more power for itself. Anyone suggesting the armed overthrow of the government can be classified as a terrorist that simple classification gives my government the excuse to disappear a person at a minimum... :-(

    Because the constitution has been nullified we as a people must assume we no longer have any rights. Our judges certainly are no longer blind, and many have agendas. We have no right to a fair trial! Hell most people don't get a trial at all anymore, but are forced to accept a plea bargain.

    We are under survalience and we have no idea how invasive it actually is. The President claims to have 100% security! We live in a world where prosecutors feel they have a duty to lie! Under these conditions justice simply doesn't exist it's an illusion at best. Do you have any idea Matt how many people simply disappear each year in this country? Never to be seen again? When we can't trust our leaders, our media, we can trust nothing! We the people don't learn things until someone breaks a law and releases classified information. We know that American citizens have been targeted by Drones and murdered. Does one really need a drone to accomplish that within our boarders?

  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    edited June 2013
    From what I recall seeing, I recall the number of disappearances being large and disconcerting, and I agree on that point that the gov't could very well have something to do with that.

    I have to disagree with your first paragraph, however. The Branch Davidians were no different than most communities in America today in terms of organization and moral will. Any group of people, however large, will ultimately be punished for being in one position while the US military / paramilitary might pummels them. I feel that the American Revolution alone proves that it's possible when the will is there.

    However, I understand that my perspective isn't one you share, but at the same time I don't believe that you're simply willing to roll over and accept an unfolding, nightmarish Orwellian world either, right? So what do you feel is the answer? A Gandhi-like approach? Simply emigrating? I'm just curious because I'm also trying to ponder a solution that doesn't result in violence, but consistently fail to do so.

    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • D1vadD1vad Member
    Matt how much of American History were you taught and do you actually remember? The American Revolutionary War was not fought in a police state! It certainly was not conducted in a country where every form of communication was monitored nor was there the vast difference in firepower that would be brought about today. Also there were a number of nations supporting the colonies...

    And yes that is my point the Branch Davidians are exactly like any community today, but again they where not living in a Police State. So just what are you disagreeing with?
    1) that the Branch Davidians fought the federal government?
    2) that the Branch Davidians where armed with battle weapons? M16?
    3) that the Branch Davidians lacked the will to fight?
    4) that the Branch Davidians lost?
    6) that one is likely to assemble a larger group armed with better weapons, and be able to out number what the federal government can send against them?
    7) do you actually suggest that the Branch Davidians lacked the 'will' to exactly what? Certainly a number were willing to die for their beliefs

    Need I really point out that the American Civil War happen after the American Revolutionary War? That it is a massive example of what happens when our people take up arms against our government? That at that point in history our government was NOT a police state? That our government didn't have access to the weapons of war that it now has? Nor was it an attempt to overthrow our government, just to peacefully go their own way.

    If we can be honest here it most certainly is not a question of 'will'! But rather a question of firepower, people, technology, money, and what one can actually do with a police state! Simply look at what those who govern us have done to our Constitution. We the people, have no meaningful representatives in government.

    We now know there is total Surveillance of our activities all away from our phone conversations even to our snail mail! There are no safe ways to organize, and plan.

    Our justice system is corrupt.
    Too often law enforcement is simply judge, jury, and executioner.
    We can no longer believe our own eyes! Our government has the knowledge and power to create evidence at will, (and need I point out how many have be caught at this?) They were amateurs. It all keeps coming back to that willingness to put liars in charge of us, and the willingness to trust a know liar! That the America government spied on its people was not that long ago the words of a nut job! Just as was the claim it intercepted all phone calls.

    Reports of missing persons have increased sixfold in the past 25 years, from roughly 150,000 in 1980 to about 900,000 this year. The increase was driven in part by the country's growing population. But the numbers also indicate that law enforcement treats the cases more seriously now, including those of marginalized citizens.

    Source: http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/forensics/americas_missing/2.html

    That works out to 2,300 a day one could hide endless 'enemies of the state' in those numbers.

    Question have you ever heard of HAARP?
    What the 'nut jobs' claim it can do? What they claim it is? A weapon.... Seems to me that I recall the coming crisis even posting a link to someone who claims to have proof it has been used on America.... Lets say you were the government and you had intercepts that prove to you satisfaction that a sigificant size group were about to declare their intention to secede from the union. Permitting that to go public might result in other choosing to join in. Do you think our government is beyond calling down a tornado to takeout a town, for the good of the nation?


    Well, some scientists have expressed concern that it could be used to trigger geophysical events like earthquakes, impact weather and affect the emotional states of people. Ionospheric heaters as a class of research instruments are nothing new; they have operated in Puerto Rico, the former Soviet Union and Tromso, Norway as well as at another site in Alaska for some time. But what is being tested in the Alaskan wilderness is new—a tool that can focus and steer the radio frequency energy upward. This makes it capable of hitting the ionosphere with a far greater impact than possible from the previous design of heaters.

    Source: http://www.vice.com/read/haarp-bizare-140-v15n8
    I would call your attention to one line above, that HAARP could effect the emotional state of people! So could that mean that if HAARP was turned onto a place like Colorado or Connecticut it could be used to increase the likely hood of a shooting incident there? And if the elimination of guns was seen as a good thing, it could be concealed under a 'military and state secrets privilege' that puts it above the law!


    "The administration is saying that even if they are violating the constitution or committing a federal crime no court can stop them because it would compromise national security. That's a very dangerous argument," said Ilann Maazel, a lawyer with the New York-based Emery Celli firm who acts as lead counsel in the Shubert case.

    Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/07/us-government-special-privilege-scrutiny-data?guni=Network front:network-front full-width-1 bento-box:Bento box:Position2:sublinks

    So think about it, this administration lies, once a liar always a liar, and more than once it has proven it willingness to lie to get what it wants.....

    The hold point here is that we the American people have been lied to time and time again by Obama and his top officials, we can not accept their word as anything more than another lie. That means anything is possible that we can think of....

    Ultimately when the administration feels it is above the law, there are no limits as to what it might do...
  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    I'm Canadian, and so was taught little to nothing of US history. I learned it all on my own through self study.

    A "police state" is simply a fancy term describing overbearing government control and monitoring. Both those two things were taking place in 1776, and both those things were the reasons why Americans revolted. Try buying or selling without the special stamps they issued at the time, and you'll see what will have happened to you. All communications were indeed monitored: dissidence in speech was punished, and letters were intercepted. Being the only two routes of communication of the day, we can effectively say that monitoring was in full force. Technology has little to do with a "police state", aside from assisting in the policing.

    Regardless however, it becomes irrelevant if a nation is in the throes of a Police State situation, for Police State qualities automatically come into force in times of war. If a country is the most free in the world and enters into a war situation, it automatically becomes a police state due to wartime requirements. This can be seen throughout history, and is born out of necessity.

    The Branch Davidians were absolutely living in Police State conditions; it was a paramilitary wing of the US government, the ATF, that ultimately took them down. Their communications were monitored and they were observed. It was in the 1990s in fact that all the "police state" technological apparatus starting coming into play. To answer your question, I'm disagreeing with your notion that what happened with the Branch Davidians could be a universally applied outcome to what would happen across America should organized revolt take place. What the BD's conducted was not warfare or revolt of any kind; they simply "stood their ground" and were subsequently wiped out, without using any strategies of war. It was a sort of philosophical Maginot Line they were upholding, and it failed for similar reasons.
    The American Civil war was a battle fought over government interference, and in the beginning, even Lincoln himself was beginning to fear a loss. Sure, the South ultimately lost themselves, but fear of losing isn't why men with courage fight wars. It was also a different war than the one we're discussing: it was standing army vs standing army. We're discussing asymmetrical warfare based on revolt: think Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Cuba, China, WW2-Korea, etc. Every single army with all its technology has failed during such conflicts, and never in history has a population been as well armed as Americans.

    Regarding HAARP, yes, we posted a fantastic CBC documentary on it. Certainly, the US government could even use nuclear weapons if they wanted an easy way to blot out a town. But once again, the larger the weapon, the less effective it becomes in asymmetrical warfare. They'd also be destroying their own resources and profits at the same time, and decreasing morale within their own still-supportive population (think Vietnam and the protests). I'm not fully convinced that it's a "mind control device", however. If that were the case, they would have already used it to being the entire population in line.

    I agree with you that Obama and his administration (as well as much if not most of the US gov't) is composed of liars and schemers and would pull out all the stops. However, one can't let fear govern their own actions, nor "what ifs" when it comes to question of liberty and truth.
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
  • mrpops09_CMOD_mrpops09_CMOD_ Chief Moderator
    WOW...great thread...I am bummed I came in so late 
    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • D1vadD1vad Member
    So your position is America has never been free, our Constitution has always been a lie, and we as Americans have nothing really to complain about? We've always had the same level of surveillance we have to day, and the Branch Davidians were subject to the same level as we are today?

    Intelligence officials overheard joking about how NSA leaker should be 'disappeared' after handing classified documents to press

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2338418/Steve-Clemons-leak-Intelligence-officials-overheard-joking-NSA-leaker-disappeared-handing-classified-documents-press.html#ixzz2Vjk2Odq6


    At one time Americans would never have accepted the possibility of this....
  • Matt_ADMIN_Matt_ADMIN_ Administrator
    @ MrP

    Never too late. Jump in, yo.

    @ D1v

    I'm not sure how one could get that from anything I just said. Nevertheless, I'll recap: "police state" qualities essentially creep up on a country until the country reaches a bursting point. Then there is a period of relative freedom where governors truly fear the governed, mostly because they were among their ranks when the revolt took place, and so themselves cherish the cause.

    This built up until 1776, when the American Revolution burst forth, resulting in America.

    This built up in 1851, when the American Civil War burst forth (although this is more a case of direct gov't intervention versus State freedoms then a cause of a people rebelling directly against the gov't itself.) This resulted in nothing, because the South unfortunately lost.

    From 1856-1913, I would say Americans enjoyed an enormous amount of freedom compared to what they have today. WW1 then tightened the noose a bit, until the Bonus Army in the interwar years threatened to "burst forth" again in the form of a coup, this time with a Corporatocratic backing, but nothing came of it.

    During WW2 America was a total police state, but the "cause" was good, and so nothing came from it.

    From The 1950s-1990s, there was a slow erosion of freedoms until in the 1990's things began to burst into isolated incidents of rebellion: Ruby Ridge, Waco, Oklahoma (although it remains a bit suspicious). The militia movement took up speed in the United States, and is why militias are such a big deal today.

    At this very moment, the police state apparatus is bearing down so heavily that there threatens to be another burst sometime soon. At the very least, America requires one.

    Essentially then, my point is that the constitution is of great import, and there are times of waxing and waning police state forces, which if they crest too much, result in revolt.

    I both agree and disagree with your final statement in that Americans would not accept something at a particular time, because there are times when Americans will indeed accept things when the pressure isn't great enough to invoke a response (as they did leading up to 1776), and then there are times when the push button is so raw that the slightest injustice will result in full bore revolt (such as Oklahoma). Many conditions affect the reaction, I suppose.
    "...Say, 'GOD is sufficient for me.' In Him the trusters shall trust." (Quran 39:38)
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